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Monday, June 01, 2009


Taiwan and China are two different nations

Stick this on your calendars

Declare to the world the truth-which-"cannot"-be told:

Taiwan and China are two different nations
(Click for full size: 1248 x 604 pixels, 1,331 kb)
Original image photographed at the 517 protest by Tim Maddog

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Cross-posted at It's Not Democracy, It's A Conspiracy!

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At 8:52 PM, Blogger Tortue said...

But what about other Taiwanese that do not think the same ? The 中華民族 has still some deep root in the north, and not only from some old mainlanders.

Keep the goods, left the bads ?

At 12:15 AM, Blogger Tim Maddog said...

No, Tortue. The question is: "What about the Taiwanese who do feel that way?" Shall we examine this further? I'll even provide links.

I'll start with some info from just one DPP poll [emphasis mine]:
- - -
Chen [Chen Chun-lin (陳俊麟), director of the DPP's poll center] said the poll also showed that more than 70 percent of the public could not accept the WHO listing Taiwan as a "province of China" on its official Web site
- - -

How about this March 2009 survey [236 KB PDF file] from the very, very pro-China TVBS which says [translation, emphasis mine]:
- - -

Relations between Taiwan and the mainland: 64% of the public support maintaining the status quo, 19% support independence, and only 5% support unification


The poll also found that on the subject of relations between Taiwan and the mainland [sic], 19% support Taiwan independence, 5 percentage points lower than a poll taken before [China's ARATS chairman] Chen Yunlin visited Taiwan (October 28, 2008), while 5% supported unification, and the earlier 58% support for maintaining the status quo increased by 6 percentage points to 64%. Over the past 5 years, this is the highest preference the public has shown for maintaining the status quo. Taking the question one step further, when the public could only choose from independence or unification, 66% of the public expressed a desire for Taiwan's independence, 17% desired unification with the mainland [sic], and 18% stated no opinion, differing only slightly from a poll taken before Chen Yunlin's visit.


Taiwanese or Chinese? Given only these 2 choices, over 7/10 (72%) of respondents identify selves as Taiwanese, an increase of 4 percentage points since last year's cross-strait talks
- - -

Or how about this, from April 2009, said to be from the pro-unification United Daily News (聯合報) -- I couldn't find the original article, but this reference to it was found on a Simplified Chinese web site [translation, emphasis mine]:
- - -


UDN survey: 69% of respondents say they don't identify selves as Chinese[...]

an increase of 26 percentage points since 12 years ago
- - -

In other words, Tortue, you don't know what you're talking about.

Tim Maddog

At 1:52 AM, Blogger Tortue said...

I actually have had an MBA from NCCU with a focus (and a thesis) on the economical consequences of the 3-links ban, it was mainly an eco & finance project but still, ideology, politics and culture part lasted quite a few chapters.

I ever seen these polls quite often for the good reason that some has been conducted by my own team or some from other department. Even if the polls as well as vote are the most superficial and easiest manipulated part of democracy, the results were quite the same as you mentioned earlier.

Ok nice result but...and then ? What does Taiwanese mean ? People who live in Taiwan ? But those who live in Hainan are Hainanese and Haiwaii are Hawaian, I don't need a poll to know that. With polls there is two side, the poll itself and the real life (not the care bears one).

First, we aren't talking here about "voting" for a new president, lawmaker...mayor and other stuff with "few" influence (although if the election of a green or blue president can make quite a big difference at the end) but about the reality, the existence and the identity of a country.

As a result, a 69% score of (so-called) pro-independence is a low score to me as it doesn't reach 99%. The point of my first comment is what do you think that the rest of 30% will do ? Accept without conditions ? In my opinion that can possibly lead to some interesting events.

By the way, who actually are these 30% ? Aren't they mainly composed of upper class people ? Yes indeed because if in your world 1人=1票, in the real one we know perfectly that the number of 票 (it's an image of course) will increase according you socio-professional category and to the size of your bank account.

Therefore, if I were you I'll be quite reserved on these "市場" polls especially when you see the results dramatically change when you start to add some highly possible "If" at the questions. I'll finish by a "positive" note for you as well for me, the unification or the independence of Taiwan won't be decided by the People of Taiwan but by barely 5% of them, we both perfectly know who they are.

Despite our differences of opinion (and that I'm quite blue) I really like to read your blog (as well as M. Turton and David's one), I often get a heart attack when I read but it's always very interesting, keep going !


At 9:12 AM, Blogger cfimages said...

Tortue, Maddog is right with his poll figures. Even the blue-voting people I know call themselves Taiwanese not Chinese and state that Taiwan and China are different. Really, with the exception of the CCP and a few old KMT soldiers, no one really believes Taiwan is part of China.

However, while we're on the subject of polls, Credit Lyonnais Securities https://www.clsa.com/index.php just released poll finding 60% in favor of the ECFA suggests the DPP would be better off working with the govt to get the best deal for Taiwan, rather than spending millions on a referendum that's probably not going to happen, and if it does, is likely to be heavily defeated.

At 9:44 AM, Blogger STOP Ma said...


For someone with an MBA you speak with much bland generality.

If you've ever bothered to ask the 70%+ Taiwanese what it means to be "Taiwanese" I think you'll find that it's a tad bit more than just "living in Taiwan". Nice try, though. Way to equivocate! Way to ignore the past...umm...century of history, too.

Speaking of "if". I'm sure you'll find (if you talk to the "little" people), that the number who support declaring official independence dramatically goes up when the possible threat of an Authoritarian regime destroying your country is removed from the equation. The Taiwanese, after all, are a pragmatic people -- if not as elitist as you seem to be.

Congratulations on your MBA. You may know how to bullshit better than a lot of us. I find that a blue elitist always has the same stale stench of desperation to justify a twisted logic to support the establishment -- regardless of the expense of the many. You exhibit that very well.

At 4:00 PM, Blogger Tim Maddog said...

Craig (cfimages) wrote (and I parody-phrase):
- - -
The polls are right, however, since a referendum will fail, DPP supporters shouldn't even try to exert the rights they still have.
- - -

Even now, Ma is using the fact that "most" (actually all) previous referendums have failed as an excuse to not have one on ECFA. I guess he thinks the voters will have forgotten that his party boycotted them, set them up so that everyone could see whether or not voters were participating, and sent their thugs to the polling stations to intimidate voters. Read this post from January 2008:
- - -
First of all was the new system which was rigged in the KMT's favor with its "winner takes all" setup assuring 8 seats in Taipei City alone. Even without all the other problems, the new system alone may have done the DPP in.


Low voter turnout (less than 57%) looks like a very important (if partial) factor here. Ya think those distorted pan-blue polls might've discouraged a bunch of DPP voters from going to the polls?

Then there's the issue of voter intimidation -- even by one's parents! My wife's father returned from the polling place before voting and "reminded" her (because one of the KMT's "observers"/henchmen saw him carrying his notification slip for the referendum) not to take the yellow notification slip with her. Of course she responded, "That's none of your business." But the fact that there were two slips and that they were different colors sure made it easy for the "observers"/henchmen.

Kinda makes those KMT cries of "The DPP-controlled CEC is repressing us!" fall flat, eh?

My wife and her sister both witnessed these "observers"/henchmen telling people outside the polling station where she voted "Don't vote for the referendum" as uniformed police officers stood by doing nothing.

The KMT aired their fake ads to the very end. Even after several fakes were discovered in their earlier ads, another guy pretending in their ads to be poor was discovered to have two children studying in Canada.

Vote buying was also a serious problem. Despite it being known about by everyone already, the evidence brought it even further out of the shadows this time around. Still, that wasn't good enough -- unless some of those cases turn some election results around. Don't know how probable that might be, however.

- - -

Next thing you know, he'll be saying the same thing about elections!

Stop_Ma, how dare you see right through Tortue's logical fallacies! ;-)

Tim Maddog

At 2:22 PM, Blogger Adeya said...

"Stop_Ma" - I couldn't agree with you more. I only received my BS degree & acquired the art to bullshit but it seems that Tortue is a rank higher - he is a "Master of Bullshit". Perhaps I need to further my education to out rank Tortue, that is "Pile of Heavy Deep" Shit or PhD. Joking aside,I felt ashamed - after all Taiwanese elected Ma into power. What will it take to unite the Taiwanese?


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